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*Registered
2005 SLK200K
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68 Posts
But Maps do not contain the operating system which calculates and manipulates that data and thus controls events via components !!
I think that was a key question answered. the “operating system” I surmise, lives in the program memory. In most microcontrollers, this is protected by security bits. It cannot be downloaded or reflashed. Even a few lines of code different will likely make a clk ecu uninterchangeable to an slk even when running exactly the same engine. Thats the deal breaker. From what you say it seems we can only reflash the 512KB internal eeprom which seems to be logical. The whole map file can fit in 512KB? As I said I wasn't sure and thank you for the answer. 512KB can be a lot of data if its pure numbers.
As for different hardware, I was thinking that GHIS4u would add the missing components. As long as the PCB is the same, this is not an impossible task. Most manufacturers will use the same base design and remove unwanted components (mostly for reliability and ease of testing) to fit other appliances.
Thanks Dave2302.
 

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*Premium Member
1999 SLK230K
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897 Posts
Well my brain just melted 🤯 this is why I stick to mechanics 🤣 nicely answered @Dave2302 only a little vague😉. Honestly I'm in ore of the electronic knowledge some of you guys posess it's truly impressive. Sadly I know my mind couldn't process that kind of information if I tried but you guys made this thread a great read and very enlightening 👍
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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I need to add some more, as there were more points above my post #20 than #20 addresses ;)

I was too busy spitting coffee all over my screen when I wrote about the rolling Kart Chassis with the metal Dustbin Rocket that I welded on the back of it, myself and a School mate built that when we were 14 after a Chemistry lesson at skool, as you can likely guess, yep, it did fire up, which is how it ended up through the Door of the old fellas Shed when my mate leapt off it as it shot across the Orchard track ..............
Oh boy did I get some serious grief when the old man came home :ROFLMAO:

with all the equipment you bought to do your testing, did you just read/write the EEPROM or the whole chip ??
For now forget the V6 to V8 that raises a ton more issues ;)

To get another ECU to run a different Car, for example V6 320 CLK ECU to run V6 320 E class, or a 320 SLK ECU to go in another 320 SLK, or a SLK 32 ECU to go in a SLK 32 all you need to do is one of these, this is fairly basic stuff :-

a) Cloning. Copy the EEPROM File from the Donor and save it, over write that to the EEPROM File of the recipient, there is a slight risk to both the ECU's if you use the Boot Wire method, which has to be soldered to a chip leg !! I messed up a few ECU's in my early days.

b) Kinda Cloning. Again risky, OK if the original ECU is FUBAR. Unsolder the Donor ECU's "Immo" Eeprom Chip that contains the Immo etc Data and swap that into the Recipient,

c) Renewing Used ECU. Safest, Virgin the replacement and do Initial Start Up (requires SDS with Developer Mode activated), which at this level of work you definitely need ;)

All these methods will need SDS to at very least check, and if necessary unlock and edit Version Codings.

I know you're one of the most knowledgeable member on this forum
I have no doubt you are the expert on the topic.
I am no expert, we are discussing the limits of my meagre knowledge here, @Deplore knows way more than I but he is busy right now, would be good if he could drop in some time ;)
After Deplore, the absolute wizard with MB's Guru is "Professor Dumbledore" our Russian buddy, also Andrew the Aussie, a Crossfire guy, all of whom willingly offered me help and support with my car during the V6 / V8 hybrid ECU (and TCU) stages. They taught me a lot of what I know now, Thanks Guys :)
There are also many many others who I have discussed this with along the way, some were helpful some not so (c'est la vie), but they all likely know more than I ;)

Find a copy of the blue Bosch fuel injection book, circa 1985, to get a handle on the subject.
Sadly a quick look suggests that is early EFI systems, not ME2.8 and above ;) If it was I'd have bought it ;)

this is protected by security bits. It cannot be downloaded or reflashed.
We used to be able to do this for genuine Firmware MB updates ;) Nowadays It can only be reflashed with genuine SDS and a very expensive subscription to MB Server, they have rowed out all the clones ;)
At least one of my above mentioned guys can actually do this using other programs, he can also do mods to the Firmware, which is extremely difficult as there are checksums etc, he is the guy that will hopefully be doing my 7 G tronic TCU, once it is installed in the Silver Car ............. If he doesn't it's not gonna fly because I certainly don't have "the knowledge" ;)

Even a few lines of code different will likely make a clk ecu uninterchangeable to an slk even when running exactly the same engine.
100% Correct which is why ...................

As for different hardware, I was thinking that GHIS4u would add the missing components.
.................... doesn't work because the Firmware is different, which us mere mortals cannot change................

.................... having said that, a recent thread / info suggests that the guy I fell out with a long while ago has claimed he can now do this, that (which would be Hardware and Firmware) is what he claims he did to someone elses M113 V8 Kompressor ECU, in order for that one to run Crank / Cruise and LIM in that guys XFire Car, which now has a M113K motor .....................

Like I said, our Russian mate can do it, so it is likely the other guy can too, but kudos to him if that is indeed what he has achieved ;)

OK, so good to discuss this and keep some of my memory active on the subject, now I really must go and swear at a Discovery whilst welding upside down in a confined space and burning myself repeatedly 🤣

(y) (y) (y)
 

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*Registered
2005 SLK200K
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68 Posts
Hmm. I just checked. There is an external flash memory on the PCB. its about 2MB. here is a link to the data sheet. questions are back again. When you “reflash” or virginize the cpu. Which memory is being overwritten? The 512KB memory INSIDE the CPU? This 2MB external flash memory (eeprom) Or perhaps both?
Passive circuit component Circuit component Black Hardware programmer Microcontroller
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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When you “reflash” or virginize the cpu. Which memory is being overwritten? The 512KB memory INSIDE the CPU? This 2MB external flash memory (eeprom) Or perhaps both?
Neither

5P08

 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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6,439 Posts
All hail the red pen🙏
In that quote the Chip Number is wrong, I edited it, you're too fast for me ;)

Either that or I should reed wot i rote then I wouldn't need to Edit :ROFLMAO:
 

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68 Posts
In that quote the Chip Number is wrong, I edited it, you're too fast for me ;)

Either that or I should reed wot i rote then I wouldn't need to Edit :ROFLMAO:
Woah! You’re the master mate! I did check the chip number. Its about 512Bytes or 1KB. Its a serial eeprom, meaning you only need 1 wire to send in the data. i am not sure what its there for. Perhaps as a buffer before it writes the code to main memory. This ECU is much more complex than I thought.
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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This ECU is much more complex than I thought.
(y) (y) (y)

That was what I discovered last year during the first Lockdown when I set to with the V8 Conversion ;)

The necessity is how I now have limited knowledge of what does what, and for me that is enough knowledge to swap Engines and ECU's willy nilly now ;)

For the Tuning I just use a file produced by others, my V8 currently has a Eurocharged Tune file in it and that works very well with the 5.4 Camshafts.

Many many moons ago I ground up built a Ford Puma, (a small UK Ford FWD Hatchback) with 4 x 4 Cosworth running gear and used a 24V Quad Cammer V6 Cosworth Engine, I used that for Special Stage Rallying ...............

Because those Motors were rare, (they were a Brian Hart Formula 3000 Engine originally) Ford bought the design and instructed Cosworth to build them for the Scorpio Cosworth :)
They were only used in a limited number of Scorpio road Cars, so no commercial remappers had hacked the Mapping, there was no Definition File available for Tuning this particular EEC 5 ECU Box Code ...............

Necessity was the mother again and with the help of a Mustang guru in USA (same ECU), I painstakingly hacked the Ford EEC 5 ECU and we came up with 150 different Parameters I could edit, another ballistic missile so it was :D :D :D

Ford de tuned the Engine for it's road cars so it was very easy to tune once I knew what hex did what ;)

Hopefully I won't get toasted, the pics are a tad off topic but it gives you guys an inkling of what I do as a hobby :unsure:

Clickable Pixels :-

From this bog standard 1.7 FWD Hatch (except for the Coswoof Wheels which I tried on it at the project start) ....



Thru this lot and a lot more in no particular order absolutely all work done by myself in my Workshop ....



























To this fire breathing monster ....





Which was well scary at 130 mph down a single lane gravel forest track :eek: :ROFLMAO:

It's what I do, and have been doing all my life ;)

Now I really must go and finish that flippin' Discovery Inner Wheelarch ;)
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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Disco left rear inner arch all welded, will update my project thread with some pics in morning, just gotta buff the welds and underseal it and the front Mudflap / Body Mount repairs tomorrow ';)

A few more burns, nasty job that one, couldn't do it with Car in the air, big fire risk, had to do it with Discovery down low and on me knees under the Wheel Tub with the Axle in the way :(
But I didn't set the Truck on fire despite plenty of smoke, I'll explain why and you'll laugh at the pics when y'all see my Fire Protection measures, it was worrying though ;)
 

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*Premium Member
2005 SLK200K 'Little Growler'
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2,253 Posts
(y) (y) (y)

That was what I discovered last year during the first Lockdown when I set to with the V8 Conversion ;)

The necessity is how I now have limited knowledge of what does what, and for me that is enough knowledge to swap Engines and ECU's willy nilly now ;)

For the Tuning I just use a file produced by others, my V8 currently has a Eurocharged Tune file in it and that works very well with the 5.4 Camshafts.

Many many moons ago I ground up built a Ford Puma, (a small UK Ford FWD Hatchback) with 4 x 4 Cosworth running gear and used a 24V Quad Cammer V6 Cosworth Engine, I used that for Special Stage Rallying ...............

Because those Motors were rare, (they were a Brian Hart Formula 3000 Engine originally) Ford bought the design and instructed Cosworth to build them for the Scorpio Cosworth :)
They were only used in a limited number of Scorpio road Cars, so no commercial remappers had hacked the Mapping, there was no Definition File available for Tuning this particular EEC 5 ECU Box Code ...............

Necessity was the mother again and with the help of a Mustang guru in USA (same ECU), I painstakingly hacked the Ford EEC 5 ECU and we came up with 150 different Parameters I could edit, another ballistic missile so it was :D :D :D

Ford de tuned the Engine for it's road cars so it was very easy to tune once I knew what hex did what ;)

Hopefully I won't get toasted, the pics are a tad off topic but it gives you guys an inkling of what I do as a hobby :unsure:

Clickable Pixels :-

From this bog standard 1.7 FWD Hatch (except for the Coswoof Wheels which I tried on it at the project start) ....



Thru this lot and a lot more in no particular order absolutely all work done by myself in my Workshop ....



























To this fire breathing monster ....





Which was well scary at 130 mph down a single lane gravel forest track :eek: :ROFLMAO:

It's what I do, and have been doing all my life ;)

Now I really must go and finish that flippin' Discovery Inner Wheelarch ;)
Why's there a fried egg in that third pic Dave?
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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Don't rock the boat 🤣
 

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2004 SLK32 AMG
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85 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
In most microcontrollers, this is protected by security bits. It cannot be downloaded or reflashed.
We used to be able to do this for genuine Firmware MB updates ;) Nowadays It can only be reflashed with genuine SDS and a very expensive subscription to MB Server, they have rowed out all the clones ;)
At least one of my above mentioned guys can actually do this using other programs, he can also do mods to the Firmware, which is extremely difficult as there are checksums etc, he is the guy that will hopefully be doing my 7 G tronic TCU, once it is installed in the Silver Car ............. If he doesn't it's not gonna fly because I certainly don't have "the knowledge" ;)
So according to you guys, the source code that Bosch at their factory burn/flash/program to the Motorola chip cannot be read ?? I'm not talking about EEPROM here but the source code/program that reads every sensors, makes all the calculations, drives different MOSFET, computes and/or adjusts AFR etc.

I don't want to restart this discussion all over again, but I have to ask this, just say yes or no !. The source code from a CLK 320 ECU is not the same as a E 320 ECU for sure. But like I said in my original post, if both ECU have the same hardware/components and you're able to reprogram the original source code AND the EEPROM to the donor ECU, you guys still won't think it would work ?? Of course just reflashing the EEPROM will not work, I know that now !

And Dave2302 this is for you:

I had to use a modified Eeprom File, which a really nice fellow conversion enthusiast helped me with
Let's say I want to start a business in Mercedes Benz ecu tuning and I have the knowledge to make my own software. I read all 512 bytes of EEPROM from the Motorola chip and external EEPROM chip and so on. I open these files with an HEX editor and have a look at it, like the picture of an HEX dump you posted above. How the hell I'm supposed to know what is what and where is where if I'm not a Bosch electronic engineer or programmer ? How your fellow conversion enthusiast knew, for example, byte A5 at address 0x0017A did what ? How did he knew what bytes to change, through trials and errors ? And do you know what software (not programmer) Eurocharged uses to tune their ecu or it's one developed in house ?
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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So according to you guys, the source code that Bosch at their factory burn/flash/program to the Motorola chip cannot be read ??
Yes but No again :ROFLMAO:

This stuff takes hours / days / weeks / months which I don't have spare and also don't need to learn right now.

If you know where to find it then you can likely read it with some kind of Programmer probably cost around £10k for something good enough, and that is why decent tuners are big businesses.
That then gives you the Hex Dump File which is like a humongous version of what I posted above

But, it is a huge file, absolutely tons of hex, and as you say you cannot recognise things within Hex, then you cannot decipher it.

There may be a commercially available Def File / Tuning Program that covers these ECU's IDK, worth looking, and if you find one please let me know !!
I can tell you that Bosch ECU's (don't know which ones), are reputedly easier to tune than Ford EEC V for reasons stated below about PID locations.

What you now need to create is a "Definition File" which is how the top tuners do it, it takes ages, the Definition File is used by a Tuning Program to put all the "Gobbledy Geek" into Plain english ;)

Hacking that hex is what helps to create the Def File !!
You need an ability to spot a pattern in the Hex and realise for example that it is an Air Flow Table, Fuelling Table, Cooling Fan Temperature Control etc etc etc.
To do that you don't just have to be fluent with hex amd PCB's, soldering, and programming, you also have to have good knowledge of how a fully electronically managed engine actually works, otherwise you will never work out what code is for the Air Flow tables, what is a Spark table etc etc etc ..............
This is a) why it is a "Black Art" and b) why a good ECU guru / Tuner charges what he does ;)

Then after all that yes there is a certain amount of trial and error !!.

That is how guys better than me at hacking do it, that is how I did the EEC V Ford ECU, (with a bunch of help).

When you find the PID Locations then you create a "Definition File" for the ECU, so when you have your Hex Dump that program translates your file into PID boxes for Example ....

Fan Speed 1 On = aa deg C
Fan Speed 1 Off = bb deg C

Fan Speed 2 On = xx deg C
Fan Speed 2 Off = yy deg C ..............................

That is just 4 PID's, the Def File I ended up with for the Ford took around 6 to 9 months of work and had 150 PID's I could adjust. I was not working at that time running a Business, I was semi retired.

Cooling Fan Temps
PATS (the Ford immo) On / Off
Auto Trans On / Off (because the 24V Cossie Scorpios only came with Auto, and I was running Manual, (would go into limp as this was a PCM as opposed to ECM. A PCM does Engine and Trans)
EGR On / Off
Multiples of Fuelling Tables
Multiples of Spark Tables

+ likely a bunch of stuff I forgot now ;)

So no tuner is gonna create a def file for a rare Engine i.e. my Ford 24V Cossie, not commercially viable, and as Ford change the PID locations in their ECU's like they change their underpants, that one V6 Cossie Engine had 5 ECU Box codes during its production run, and my Def File could only work with 2 of those 5 !!

I would be very surprised if MB use the same PID Locations across all of it's ECU's, but it is a Bosch, so just maybe ..............

The source code from a CLK 320 ECU is not the same as a E 320 ECU for sure
You haven't digested what I been saying, or there is confusion here ...............
You are saying Source Code, what I'm referring to I and others call it Firmware or simplify it, it is like your PC's Operating System, (Ubuntu, Windows etc etc) ...........
The Mapping, The Immo, The OBD Monitors are like Apps within ;) Did you know there are some Controllers on that PCB that Control the Coil Driver Mosfets, Injector Driver Mosfets etc etc, I know they are dumb, but control them they do ;) But we don't need to mess with those !!

Yes between a lot of models using ME2.8 and an EIS i.e. 2002 320 CLK, 2003 320 E 2002 320 S, it is likely the same, just different Version Coding, swapping any of those ECU's between those Cars does work, those ECU's do not work on an R170 !!

It is Immo Data, Version Codings and VIN etc contained in the EEPROM FILE as opposed to chip) There are several Eeprom chips, I have no clue what they contain !! No need to know !!

The 5P08 I pointed out in the picture definitely contains the EEPROM File to which I refer.

It's like the FLASH FILE that one contains the Mapping, I don't know where it is stored, I have no need to know !!, all I have to do is read it and overwrite it, unlike the Coswoof V6 motor, with my M113 V8 I don't even need to Edit (Tune) the FLASH FILE, I just use a well tested and trusted Tune File ;)

Now bearing in mind no one has answered me to tell me what that Hex I posted is all about, it is gonna take that "no one" donkeys yonks to learn this and really honestly not worth me going much further and certainly not as in depth with this ;)

It is taking up valuable time, and no I'm not being funny / nasty, and I will help where I can but I am getting behind with my own stuff !!
If you really wanna learn Hex (and Ascii) is useful too, sign up for an online course ...................

Of course, it ain't that simple, there is another rub there, because many manufacturers use "slang" versions to program their ECU's ................ Once again something else to learn o_O

That section of Hex I posted is a section of the EEPROM FILE from the 5P08 and therein that section of Hex lies the VIN and Engine Number of the Vehicle it came off of ;) That is sooooo Basic that even the UK Police can read that to check if someone has done something nefarious (@M4rCu5) :ROFLMAO: :p .............. Private joke, he didn't indulge in any skullduggery ;)

This is why I do things the way I do, because I am 59.5 years old, been in the Motor game since I was 14, and I've learned from many experiences and great guys and what I say is the easiest way to do it ;)

Sadly I never got into programming at the level some of the top Tuners are, really wish I had, I just learn and teach myself on a need to know basis these days, and herein this post I have told you guys all that I know ;)

I sincerely hope it has helped, and if you embark on properly sussing these ME2.8's out, please share your info with me ;)

🍻 🍻 🍻
 
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