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2004 SLK32 AMG
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,

First I would like to say I'm not a newbie when it comes to electronics. Programming microcontroller (PIC family), EEPROM chip, desoldering/soldering chip, CCS C Compiler etc... I have no problems, but I'm a newbie with Mercedes Engine ECU !!!

What data needs to be clone (Program) to the donor ECU ? Engine map, IMMO, key fob transponder chip data, VIN or other things I'm missing !! Are all that data program to the Motorola ZC432594CFN (M68HC11E9) or also on EEPROM chips elsewhere on the PCB board ?

I have a good ECU from a 2000 CLK320 and I compared the PCB board to my SLK32 AMG ECU, and they seem to have the same components at the same place !

So my question is, can I clone the CLK320 ECU into a SLK32 ECU with the proper equipment (K-TAG) ? I'm just gonna make sure that the CLK320 ECU has the MOSFET to turn on the supercharger clutch on the board, C1 (pin 1).

I have no problem with my SLK32 ECU, but would like to learn and maybe have a spare ECU just in case something goes bad with mine !

By the way, the CLK320 ECU is Bosch ME2.8 and mine is ME2.8.1, what is the difference ?? Only firmware ??

Thank you !
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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So my question is, can I clone the CLK320 ECU into a SLK32 ECU with the proper equipment (K-TAG) ?
It sounds simple doesn't it, your knowledge may help you, but I doubt it, so in a word I'm gonna say NO ;)

Lets elaborate a bit .............

Your best bet is to buy a new SLK 32 ECU, or if you can find one, get a good used one and simply Virgin it with a decent Programmer, and then put it on SDS and do an "Initial Start Up".

I am absolutely positive that CLK and all other non R170 ME2.8 M112 ECU's have extra Cranking and Cruise Limiter SMD hardware on the multi layer PCB, both sides. I even painstakingly added all that to a V8 ECU way back when, but still no Cranking / No Cruise LIM because one of the Files (likely Eeprom) needed modifying. I could not find the specific Hex and no one could / would help me at that time :(
I gave up on that idea. This is one reason so many DIY V8 Conversions don't get finished, unless the owner uses a specialist ECU guru.

Another point, KTag is not "proper equipment" I discovered a flaw with it and ME2.8 EEPROM files ..............
It fudges Eeprom Files, what you see on screen and what it writes is not the full Eeprom File, and again way back last year I even bought a second KTag, in case mine was faulty.
I have the newest version too BTW.
There are much better programmers, but they cost a huge amount, they are expensive for a reason ;)

All of this was the whole reason I added the extra Coil and Injector Driver components to my V6 ECU which enabled it to run the extra 2 Cylinders of the V8 M113, but even then there was issues with it shutting down cylinders and reporting misfires that weren't real misfires :(

I had to use a modified Eeprom File, which a really nice fellow conversion enthusiast helped me with :)
Also I had to use the V8's Flash File (Mapping) I knew that from the outset.
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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I found these in my archive, they show just some of the Cranking and Cruise / LIM SMD Hardware differences .............................

R170 ME2.8 ....



Regular ME2.8 ....



But, like I said, just swapping all of those in doesn't work, there is also programming to be hacked, and I couldn't find anyone to help with that they all wanted to charge me large sums I was not prepared to pay ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It sounds simple doesn't it, your knowledge may help you, but I doubt it, so in a word I'm gonna say NO ;)

Lets elaborate a bit .............

Your best bet is to buy a new SLK 32 ECU, or if you can find one, get a good used one and simply Virgin it with a decent Programmer, and then put it on SDS and do an "Initial Start Up".

I am absolutely positive that CLK and all other non R170 ME2.8 M112 ECU's have extra Cranking and Cruise Limiter SMD hardware on the multi layer PCB, both sides. I even painstakingly added all that to a V8 ECU way back when, but still no Cranking / No Cruise LIM because one of the Files (likely Eeprom) needed modifying. I could not find the specific Hex and no one could / would help me at that time :(
I gave up on that idea. This is one reason so many DIY V8 Conversions don't get finished, unless the owner uses a specialist ECU guru.

Another point, KTag is not "proper equipment" I discovered a flaw with it and ME2.8 EEPROM files ..............
It fudges Eeprom Files, what you see on screen and what it writes is not the full Eeprom File, and again way back last year I even bought a second KTag, in case mine was faulty.
I have the newest version too BTW.
There are much better programmers, but they cost a huge amount, they are expensive for a reason ;)

All of this was the whole reason I added the extra Coil and Injector Driver components to my V6 ECU which enabled it to run the extra 2 Cylinders of the V8 M113, but even then there was issues with it shutting down cylinders and reporting misfires that weren't real misfires :(

I had to use a modified Eeprom File, which a really nice fellow conversion enthusiast helped me with :)
Also I had to use the V8's Flash File (Mapping) I knew that from the outset.
Thank you for your respond, that's what I call a good explanation !!!!

You may be right, but I doubt that Bosch makes different ECU for each class !! The CLK320 ECU PCB layout looks just like mine but I did not check the other side of the PCB board !

In a CLK, you can have a V6 or V8. Do you think that the V6 car has a different ECU PCB layout that the V8 car ??? For sure both don't have the same RAM on the Motorola chip ! Where is located the fuel map, ignition timing etc... on the Motorola MCU, RAM or EEPROM ??

From what I understand, if you have problems with your ECU, you buy a used one from the same class with the same engine, read the EEPROM from the original ECU and write it to the donor ECU. If you can't read the original EEPROM, you virgin the donor ECU and you reprogram it with SDS.

But the point is, we're only talking about the 512KB EEPROM, that contains the info relative to each car, but there's also RAM on that chip !! I do believe that if the CLK320 ECU as the same components on each side of the PCB as my SLK32 ECU and I read the entire Motorola MCU from my car, not only the EEPROM and reprogram the CK320 ECU, It may work !!

In your case, you went from a V6 to a V8, that's another ball game !!!!
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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Believe me, I'm not trying to talk you outta this, I am just divulging what I know in order to help you by saving you the hours and days and weeks and months of pain that I had,
ME2.8 ECU's Cranking Cruise and Limiter Circuitry is the same on all R170's and XFires but is unique compared to any other MB's, it took me months of hard knocks to work that one out ;)
Every time I thought I had it sussed it threw something else at me ;)
Read my entire build thread ;)

I'd like to see you do it and pass that knowledge on so I can help others, and maybe find a way to use a regular V8 ECU for the next V8 Conversion without having to go through all the stuff I did to get mine to work properly ;) At this point in time I still state that it is not possible !!

In a CLK, you can have a V6 or V8. Do you think that the V6 car has a different ECU PCB layout than the V8 car ???
Absolutely YES but No but ......................

ECU PCB is likely the same, but the components on it are not all the same, R170 definitely has extra SMD hardware !!

What I do know is V6 CLK (and others) has not got the Mosfets and SMD's to drive the extra 2 Injectors and extra 2 Coils to fire all cylinders of a V8.

A V6 ECU will run a V8 with the correct V8 Maps s/w but the V8 will only fire on 6 of it's 8 cylinders until one adds the extra Mosfets and SMD's !!

Also a bone stock V6 ECU on it's own mapping s/w will also run a V8 but only on the 2 (timing) Cylinders which is #1 and #6 !!
So yes Mosfets and associated SMD Hardware is different there, but that doesn't concern you, because you want to use a 6 cyl ECU, you are not fitting a V8.

Your issue is that the CLK and everything else with M112 Cranks the Engine from Ignition Switch via a CAN Comm Signal, not hard wiring, same with Cruise and LIM, those are CAN signals.
R170 Cars loom is uniquely wired and like no other Mercedes ME 2.8 Car, therefore the CLK, CL, C, E, S, etc etc ME2.8 ECU's have less SMD Hardware. They will not crank an R170 and Cruise and Limiter will not work. I also think there may well be other differences between S/C and N/A Engines, but since I haven't done that I won't say for certain !!
ML uses the same Key as R170, but it has another unique method to Crank the Engine, ML's Ignition Switch has a CAN module on it which effectively sends the same Signal to the ECU so they have less hardware than R170, very likely the same hardware all the others have.

I'll say it again ................. R170 uses unique Crank / Cruise / LIM Circuitry

In your case, you went from a V6 to a V8, that's another ball game !!!!
Yes it was, but the No Crank, No Cruise No LIM issue is still the same between ME 2.8 all other MB's and ME 2.8 R170 regardless. If I had been putting a V8 in a CLK ML or most other MB's it would have been light years easier ;)

R170 uses the Pulse Module for Starter Relay, and Cruise LIM Switch is IIRC direct hard wired to ME 2.8, as opposed to those functions using a CAN signal from the EIS on other cars like CLK, or the MB factory EIS Emulator on the ML which use the Blade type key ............

R170 V6 and SLK 32 does not use EIS and SAM's so the 32 ECU will have that extra hardware and different programming. It also very likely has at least some extra hardware like Mosfets to drive the S/C Clutch, etc etc ;)

And no, a Starter Button direct to Starter Solenoid doesn't work on ME2.8, it gives other issues although they will eventually fire up usually just before you flatten the Battery trying, and then they run with no issues until you switch it off and try to start it again ;)

Also the programming is not all just in the Epr File, Epr contains, (as far as I delved) just the Version Codings and Immo (Drive Auth), it may also contain some of the ECU's Monitors too, it was the Epr file I got help with to get rid of that Misfire / Cylinder Shutdown that wasn't really a Misfire.

Fls File contains the Mapping.

There is another File which a programmer will pull, the Micro ST file, but I worked out that that one is irrelevant, no need to even look at it, I am fairly sure that one just contains Adaptives as every time the Engine has been run that files hex keeps changing !!

Believe me when I say I bought at least 25 - 30 EBay V8 and V6 ECU's to use as R&D Fodder and component Donors, and after Weeks (during lockdown) of eating and sleeping ECU Hex, 7 am to 7pm + most days of the week I finally got it sussed.

Cloning an ECU is easy peasy simples ...................

But as I said yesterday, you will need an SLK 32 ECU to successfully do that, and even then I wouldn't risk it ...........

Inside a half hour I could Virgin a good used ECU and use SDS to do an Initial Start up on it, it really is that simple.
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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From what I understand, if you have problems with your ECU, you buy a used one from the same class with the same engine, read the EEPROM from the original ECU and write it to the donor ECU. If you can't read the original EEPROM, you virgin the donor ECU and you reprogram it with SDS.
Sorry, I missed that earlier ....................

Again yes but no but ;) .......................

Virginise using decent Programmer, then Initial Start then Version Codings using SDS

That will work with most, i.e. if you have a 3.2 litre N/A V6 CLK, C, E or S Class any one of those vehicles ECU's can be used providing it is the same ME 2.8 and same Engine, i.e. 320 V6 in this case, the only thing you would have to do if you put an ECU from a different Model / Spec is to use SDS to unlock the ME's Version Coding and adjust where necessary, but you should do that anyways with any Module swap, even if it has identical part number ...........

You cant swap one of those onto an R170 V6 though, for all the reasons I previously discussed !!

Nor could you use a N/A ECU on a Supercharged Engine, i.e. use an M113 5.4 V8 N/A W220 S Class ECU on a S/C M113K 5.4 V8 S/C W220 S55 Kompressor ;)

I think I've about covered everything now ;)

In conclusion just wait until you wanna put a 7 G tronic Transmission in a 5 speed Auto car, I will be covering that soon, after the un co-operative Land Rover Discovery towing vehicle project is finished and I get back to playing with the Silver SLK 320 that I bought specifically for doing that Conversion whilst I still use my V8 car ;)

That one is gonna take light years longer than the R170 V8 Engine Conversion when it comes to sorting the Electronics (fairly easy) and then the Programming ;)

HTH :)
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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Oh, final comment, many EBay etc sellers list C CLK E etc etc 3.2 V6 ME 2.8's as suitable part for SLK 320 .....................

Now, from reading all the above you know how I know that is plain wrong :ROFLMAO:
 

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Oh, final comment, many EBay etc sellers list C CLK E etc etc 3.2 V6 ME 2.8's as suitable part for SLK 320 .....................

Now, from reading all the above you know how I know that is plain wrong :ROFLMAO:
They also list 4 seater SLKs!!!
 

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Where is located the fuel map, ignition timing etc... on the Motorola MCU, RAM or EEPROM ??
I also come from an electronics background. I know little about cars. I think I agree with you, for the same engine type I dont think MB will make a different ECU. I hope you succeed in this project of yours! I am following you.

From what I know of any car, the CPU does not do any calculation. for example, it does not use Boyle's law to compute how much to adjust the injection timing to keep the 14.7 air fuel ratio for a given temperature and pressure. The MB engineers have already determined the values empirically in the factory and put all the values in a look up table in EEPROM. It will not be computed and stored in RAM while the car is running. Also the anti theft data will probably be stored in the EEPROM. The EIS and the ECU have to "know" each other or else the ECU will not allow drive authorization.

I do not know if this MPC564 CPU uses external flash memory. Somehow I think 512KB internal flash is not enough to hold all the look up table data. I really am not sure. But I think you can check the chip numbers on the PCB and see if the CPU uses external flash memory. The MPC564 can definitely interface to an external BUS. I suspect that the SDS will only be able to flash this memory and not the CPU internal flash or much less the CPU instruction memory!

The million dollar question will be, does the CLK and SLK use exactly the same program stored in program instruction memory?
There will be key differences between CLK and SLK, for example does the ECU somehow send data to the vario roof controller? so that the vario roof will not open while the car is in motion. Even the smallest bit of program code difference will mean the two ECUs are never going to be interchangeable. but lets hope not.
 

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From what I know of any car, the CPU does not do any calculation.
Uh... no.

The MB engineers have already determined the values empirically in the factory and put all the values in a look up table in EEPROM. It will not be computed and stored in RAM while the car is running.
True for "open loop" operation, but not for "closed loop", which is the most common mode of operation.

For reference, google "long term fuel trim" and "short term fuel trim".
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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I dont think MB will make a different ECU.
Unbelievable 😭

YES THEY DO !!

What part of R170 has unique wiring and circuitry do you not understand ? Or did you not bother to read what I explained in detail ?

And therein lies one of the most significant issues NO R170's / Crossfires were ever fitted with an EIS 😭

I'm not typing all this out because I don't know what I'm talking about or want to be a party pooper, but yep I obviously wasted my time once again 😠

👋👋👋
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Unbelievable 😭

YES THEY DO !!

What part of R170 has unique wiring and circuitry do you not understand ? Or did you not bother to read what I explained in detail ?



And therein lies one of the most significant issues NO R170's / Crossfires were ever fitted with an EIS 😭

I'm not typing all this out because I don't know what I'm talking about or want to be a party pooper, but yep I obviously wasted my time once again 😠

👋👋👋
No No No, don't think you are wasting your time …. I know you're one of the most knowledgeable member on this forum, so please don't take it like that !! I just want to learn and other members too !!

But just answer one question, when Kleemann tune an ECU, where is that modified data stored ?? On the Motorola EEPROM or on another EEPROM chip elsewhere on the PCB ? Like BSY said, 512KB of EEPROM is not a lot to store an engine map !!

I understand very well that a V6 ECU needs extra components to fire two more cylinders …

And one more question, with all the equipment you bought to do your testing, did you just read/write the EEPROM or the whole chip ??
 

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Uh... no.



True for "open loop" operation, but not for "closed loop", which is the most common mode of operation.

For reference, google "long term fuel trim" and "short term fuel trim".
As I said. I’m not a car expert. I will research a bit more. And I have no doubt you are the expert on the topic. For closed loop operation, I really think the cpu is still using a look up table, it will just be a different table. Example is if O2 sensor is not available yet, use injector timing in table 1. If O2 sensor value is available then use table 2, use the value received from the O2 sensor to find the right timing value. Closed loop means that its taking feedback from the O2 sensor. I do not think that CPU will ever use say pV=nRT (Boyle’s law) to compute the right injector timing. I say this because that gives insight to how much 512KB onboard memory of the CPU can do. If cpu uses pV=nRT (actually you will need more equations) to compute the right injector timing, it will not need much EEPROM but will need more RAM.
 

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But just answer one question, when Kleemann tune an ECU, where is that modified data stored ?? On the Motorola EEPROM or on another EEPROM chip elsewhere on the PCB ? Like BSY said, 512KB of EEPROM is not a lot to store an engine map !!
I thought you opened up you ECU and played with it already? There are pictures of PCBs of R170 ECU in this forum. We can check the chip numbers. I bet there is an external eeprom on the pcb. I guess thats the only memory that can be reflashed. I doubt the cpu instruction memory can ever be reflashed or even dowloaded. MB surely would have set the security bits for that,
 

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As I said. I’m not a car expert. I will research a bit more. And I have no doubt you are the expert on the topic. For closed loop operation, I really think the cpu is still using a look up table, it will just be a different table. Example is if O2 sensor is not available yet, use injector timing in table 1. If O2 sensor value is available then use table 2, use the value received from the O2 sensor to find the right timing value. Closed loop means that its taking feedback from the O2 sensor. I do not think that CPU will ever use say pV=nRT (Boyle’s law) to compute the right injector timing. I say this because that gives insight to how much 512KB onboard memory of the CPU can do. If cpu uses pV=nRT (actually you will need more equations) to compute the right injector timing, it will not need much EEPROM but will need more RAM.
Find a copy of the blue Bosch fuel injection book, circa 1985, to get a handle on the subject.
 

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**Premium Member '02 R170 SLK V8 5.0 & '00 SLK320
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I am one of these folks who cannot let it rest when I see a load of inaccurate information being posted on Fora. Used to get me in trouble as I would also use colourful Workshop language which I don't do on SLK world any more ;)

My view is that in the future it is possible that some poor soul member will read that, and cost himself a fortune wasting his time and money trying to do something that is not possible :(
Exactly what I was trying to save @Ghis4U from !!

So ok, here goes, might as well spend more time and include a little humour along the way ;) ..................

when Kleemann tune an ECU, where is that modified data stored ??
In the Flash File it is the Flash File that contains Mapping. Map files are around 512 kb yes
But Maps do not contain the operating system which calculates and manipulates that data and thus controls events via components !!

I have seen, read several times, and digested probably 10 % of the the absolutely huge Strategy document for these ECU's, they are not ECU's like on an old 1980's EFI Vauxhall Senator, or aftermarket stuff like Megasquirt etc !!

Remember, these ME2.8 ECU's are 2001 ish Technology, up to date ones are even more complicated and powerful.

These ECU's have more computing power than the Space Shuttle !! .................. Yep OK that might well be an exaggeration but I won't make further comment on the Space Shuttle because I know naff all about it. However, it may well be true, because the information required to simply dump Hydrogen and Oxygen into a bloomin' great Galvanised Dustbin to provide a huge forward thrust doesn't sound that complicated, we made a Rocket Motor once and burned down the old fellas shed :ROFLMAO:

Lets just look at what is needed to provide the humble Sparks on a basic M113 5.0 ..............
An M112 / M113 / and the Kompressor Versions have 2 Spark Plugs per cylinder which ME2.8 fires each Spark Plug on 4 of the Cylinders FIVE times per revolution.

At 6000 rpm that equates to 240,000 sparks per minute, or 4000 sparks per second.
Now, that ECU has to also vary the Spark Timing on each Plug in a nano second based upon various Sensor inputs, plotting stuff like various Temperatures, IAT, Ambient Air, Coolant, Boost, Load, MAP, MAF, Knock to name just a few Parameters it plots before it adjusts that Timing, all in a nanosecond, and now consider it still has time to monitor, switch and adjust a gazillion other items / parameters ....................... Anyone who thinks 512kb controls all that is deluded !!

The 512kb just contains the specific data needed to enable the MCU to calculate and issue the instructions yatta yatta ;)

This is why IMHO that any "modern" Tuned Factory ECU is always better than an aftermarket ECU on a road car and exactly why I would never have built my V8 R170 unless I could use all it's Computers (Modules) to work in harmony, as MB intended, and once I achieved that I then set about Tuning it !!

So the knowledge that @Ghis4U and @BSY have with Electronics may well be beneficial as part of a team, but I'll bet ya a pound to a pinch of poo that without knowing exactly how everything is working, what it is doing, what the ECU Strategy is etc etc you guys may well not be able to recognise a complicated line of Hex and tell me exactly what that line does !!

Here we are, lets see if you can tell me what this is, hint this is very very basic stuff and something you will need to know ....



Now, if anyone reading this still doubts me all you gotta do is take your programmer, Virgin your CLK, C, E, S V6 320 M112 ME2.8 ECU, unplug your V6 R170's ECU, plug in the CLK ECU and use your SDS for initial start, under a half hours work, possibly an hour first time you do it ;)

Come back here and tell us if it cranks starts and runs your Engine or not, which if it was an N/A V6 R170 ECU it would, but if a 32 Motor it would still run on all six, you'd have no Supercharger that's all ...........................

But it doesn't crank off the key etc etc, been there tried that got the Tee ;)

Note that there are no rolling Key Codes, so you can plug your SLK's ECU back in when you have found out that it doesn't work, and your car will start up and run fine.

I did that a million times with various ECU's a lot of which I did get to actually start the Engines, but on the R170 once again NO CRANK off Key, NO CRUISE, NO LIM, (Hardware and Firmware issues), and of course once that was resolved by actually using an R170 ECU, then there was my EEPROM issue of reporting false Mis-Fires and shutting down Cylinders as soon as I gave it some welly ;) ......................

Even someone as brilliant as me .... 🤣 🤣 🤣.... had to get a bit of help to sort that one.

That's all folks ...................

Cue the music .................
 
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