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Premium Member 1999 SLK230-sold
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Discussion Starter #1
One of the best examples of this competition has to be the case of supersonic passenger airliners, the Concorde and its Soviet equivalent, the Concordski, whose official name was Tupolev Tu-144.

The story apparently goes that Soviet officials caught wind of the Concorde project (a joint venture by France and the U.K.) in the mid-1960s and it immediately started their own similar program.

Even to this day, it’s not been officially confirmed that there was industrial espionage involved, but in spite of the fact that work on the Tu-144 started after the Concorde, its maiden flight took place a few months before. And not only that, but the Soviet supersonic passenger airliner was better in many ways than the Concorde, and its initial reception was actually very positive.

 
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Premium Member 2012 SLK55 AMG
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You just have to look at most Russian aircraft both civil and military and compare them to aircraft from other countries to tell that some copying took place somewhere along the line. Who copied who is an unknown but most of the Russian aircraft projects were started after the projects they seem to resemble. There are some very very similar designs out there.?
 

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Super Moderator UK SLK 55 AMG 2007
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Not all were copies though.

They also made some innovative planes.
Some very large planes that could barely fly too.
 

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Premium Member 2012 SLK55 AMG
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Not all were copies though.

They also made some innovative planes.
Some very large planes that could barely fly too.
Very true.
Oh, and the worlds only nuclear powered bomber that actually flew under nuclear power!
(And left a trail of destruction in its path)
........if the rumours are to be believed :eek:
 

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Registered 2006 SLK200k
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While the first paragraph does say "but the Soviet supersonic passenger airliner was better in many ways than the Concorde " the rest of the article disproves the statement and lists all its faults.
 

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Premium Member 2008 SLK55 AMG
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406 Posts
Sorry, but, the TU-144 was NOT better than the Concorde !!! Full stop , period !
 

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Premium Member 2008 SLK55 AMG
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406 Posts
Recently i remember reading about one of the latest fighters that could do a "super cruise" that is, cruising at over Mach 1 without re-heat. The Concorde was doing that in the late 60's.! Any one remember the TSR2 ???
 
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Registered 2008 SLK280
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I read somewhere and I do not know how true it is but the Anglo-French consortium knew the Russians were stealing plans so they had a set with deliberate changes so that the Russians got 'bad' plans.

As for noise etc, Concorde was the first and as with all things there is a learning curve such that if there had been a ConcordeII then a more refined aircraft would have been the outcome.

I used to live on the flight path in to Heathrow and went in to the garden to watch it fly over - a magnificent sight.

There was talk of a group trying to get one to fly again (think the group behind getting a Vulcan flying again were involved).
 

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Premium Member 2012 SLK55 AMG
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I went to visit G-BOAF at filton the other week, I was talking to one of the guides who said that if Boeing had made their supersonic airliner then Concorde would still be in the air today, with maybe a couple of generations of upgrades and there’s would be more supersonic airliners from other manufacturers. They believe that because it’s only competition was from the 144 then prices remained high and put it out of most people’s reach. If there was more competition then there may have been price wars and it wouldn’t be an everyday form of travel for the masses.
I
 

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Premium Member 2008 SLK55 AMG
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I read somewhere and I do not know how true it is but the Anglo-French consortium knew the Russians were stealing plans so they had a set with deliberate changes so that the Russians got 'bad' plans.

As for noise etc, Concorde was the first and as with all things there is a learning curve such that if there had been a ConcordeII then a more refined aircraft would have been the outcome.

I used to live on the flight path in to Heathrow and went in to the garden to watch it fly over - a magnificent sight.

There was talk of a group trying to get one to fly again (think the group behind getting a Vulcan flying again were involved).
Yes, I remember hearing that as well. Although it's so long ago now, I can't remember an official source to quote. Also the TU-144 was said to suffer from vibration and high fuel consumption, with re-heat being required throughout the flight (not really sure about that one?). What killed the Concorde (among other things), was noise and fuel consumption. But it did fly for over 30 years which is not a bad record for a big aeroplane (OK, B52 and DC3 excepted ). Having worked at Heathrow for a long time, wherever in the airport you were, you could hear it take off. 9.15am and 11.15am, i seem to remember, New York bound. My most vivid memory is going home from work on my bike in the fog, passing through Hatton Cross near "The Green Man" pub, The Concorde goes over at about 100 feet with full re-heat. All you can see as you look up is 4 orange circles of flame dissappear into the fog, The noise is deafening for a few moments and you get that pressure on your chest from the noise, just like you get with a funny car after launch at a drag race meeting. Fantastic !!!! :) It is sorely missed :(
 

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Premium Member 2008 SLK55 AMG
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The TSR2 was built just down the road from us at Vickers in Weybridge (same place as the Brooklands race track). It was built in the mid sixties and was top secret. You needed a ID swipe card to get into the building, which was really hi-tech at that time. Overnight it was scrapped, bulldozed out onto the tarmac and the whole thing abandoned. This was after most of money was spent, and most of the work was done, there were aircraft flying, and proceeding quite well. The Labour government that were in power at the time were financially in trouble and agreed to buy the American F111 (that we never got) and scrap the TSR2 as part of the deal.
 
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Premium Member 2008 SLK55 AMG
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I think that even the mighty Concorde has nothing on the take off noise of the Rockwell B1 ‘Bone’ with full reheat. ?
A difficult call. I haven't heard the B1 but image it would be in the same "Extremely Loud" category as the Concorde. How would the Valkyrie fare do you think ??? :)
 

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Premium Member 2012 SLK55 AMG
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A difficult call. I haven't heard the B1 but image it would be in the same "Extremely Loud" category as the Concorde. How would the Valkyrie fare do you think ??? :)
I have heard both and he Bone is definitely louder but the Olympus engines had their own distinct sound.
I would imagine the Valkyrie would have been even louder with a 6 burner.
It’s a Pity we never got to find out.
One of the loudest aircraft I have ever heard is the Russian Bear and that has props!
Even the RAF and USAF interceptors say it ear piercingly loud when the they are escorting one!
We have an Antonov AN12 that regularly flies over our house at approx 15000ft and that is stupidly loud too......enough to drown out the local cessnas / pipers that are overhead at 2000ft!
 
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