06 c350 6 Spd owner here, slk350 retrofit mods in progress.... - Mercedes Benz SLK Forum

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#1 Old 03-05-2011
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06 c350 6 Spd owner here, slk350 retrofit mods in progress....

Hello.

2006 (w203) Pewter/Black c350 6 Spd owner here.

In the midst of modifying my engine.

I've spent countless hours researching the exact parts, down to the nuts and bolts, that make the performance difference increase in the 09-11 SLK350 w/ M014 Performance Pkg (better known as the "red stripe" engine cover...)

300hp w/ 7200rpm redline vs 270hp w/ 6500rpm redline found in other m272 E35s)

I could go on for pages about my project, dubbed m272.96x

Essentially, the standard E35 m272 has the engine designation m272.960. The upgraded 09-11 SLK350 has the 272.969. The 08-11 SL350 also has these upgrades, dubbed m272.968.

The upgrades provided by MB are as follows:

Injection molded composite intake manifold w. single stage intake runner (vs aluminum dual stage)

82mm bosch Throttle Body (vs 74mm)

larger intake/exhaust valves w/ sodium filled stems

conical/strengthened valvesprings
hardened rockerarms
more aggressive cam profile (intake and exhaust)
triangular design timing chain to reduce vibration at higher redline

domed pistons to increase compression ratio a point from 10.7 to 11.7

obviously the differential also has the 3.27 gearset, where the others, such as the c350, have 2.82



ANYWAY

So far, I've procured the intake manifold and throttle body which will be going on (via myself) next weekend. I've also procured a 3.06 gearset from a c32 differential (my c350 has a larger 210mm ring gear than your slk, my only upgradable option is the 3.06 found in c32s)

To date, I've installed OBX headers and a tune from OETuning.

Cale
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#2 Old 03-05-2011
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Hey Cale - don't forget, completely different ECU in the case of the SLK.



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#3 Old 03-05-2011
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Would I swap ECUs bw the two? No.

Are the nuts, bolts, and pinouts of various wiring harness connections all the same? Yes.

I guess what I'm saying is that I get your point but don't know how it applies to my project

I just joined to have access to whatever information has changed hands here, as well as share some information regarding differences of the 272.969 E35; it would seem that not many technically inclined/vaguely interested m272 E35 owners have the slightest idea of what actually makes up the core enhancements behind the bumper in power and redline of the 09-11 SLK350/SL350 in question. I have spent a many hours dissecting it all, mostly via EPC, many more hours hunting down the corresponding intake manifold & throttle body... and am trying to condense that experience into something quickly tangible for those interested
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Originally Posted by cpbeasley View Post
I just joined to have access to whatever information has changed hands here, as well as share some information regarding differences of the 272.969 E35; it would seem that not many technically inclined/vaguely interested m272 E35 owners have the slightest idea of what actually makes up the core enhancements behind the bumper in power and redline of the 09-11 SLK350/SL350 in question. I have spent a many hours dissecting it all, mostly via EPC, many more hours hunting down the corresponding intake manifold & throttle body... and am trying to condense that experience into something quickly tangible for those interested
Interesting, but way too technical for the majority here. Very few here complain about lack of power. Appearance and comfort enhancements, as well as maintenance and care tips are the primary focus.
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#5 Old 03-06-2011
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Welcome from Blighty....

Larger bore throttle body gives 23% more cross-sectional area, allowing corresponding substantial increase in air-flow capacity.

Combined with the other mods you mention, it's no surprise that the later engine is able to deliver more power. The stronger springs are needed if the valves are larger (and presumably heavier) and if they've raised the red-line. Previous one may have been compromised by valve spring resonance. Raising engine speed while maintaining torque leads to more power.

"Torque is the size of the bang. Power is the number of bangs per second" - Keith Duckworth, co-founder of Cosworth

MB will have needed to re-map the ECU to take advantage of these modifications, while at the same time complying with tighter exhaust emissions regulations (Euro 4 to Euro 5). Also would have needed to raise the rev-limit to accommodate the new 'red-line'...

You may be able to unleash some of the power benefits by simply changing the mechanical bits, but I'd say it's likely that some kind of re-map/re-chip is in your future.

Swapping the ECU for a later one may be an option I guess, though that may depend on how the immobiliser/security system works.
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#6 Old 03-06-2011
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#7 Old 03-06-2011
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Yeah, my point is I'm not sure even if you were to swap all the mechanical bits how the "old" ECU would compensate for the increased airflow, etc. I would think that a good tuner could remap an old ecu to give you at least some of the advantages you are trying to achieve.

Exactly what are you planning on changing? Just the intake and throttle body? If that's the case, I think you'd be able to get away with a remap on the existing ECU.

The "new" 272 also has a different harmonic balancer shaft from the original 272's - not sure what the sequence numbers where for the change.

A couple of the hardcore folks looked at doing something like this to give the ability to harness the new horsepower coupled with the 6m transmission, and in the end, decided it was not viable given the costs. I'm much more an electronics guy than mechanical, will be interesting to see if Arno notices this thread! :-)

Hope you do a before and after dyno - would be interesting to see the $ per hp gains that can be achieved.



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#8 Old 03-06-2011
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Originally Posted by GeeJay View Post
Welcome from Blighty....

Larger bore throttle body gives 23% more cross-sectional area, allowing corresponding substantial increase in air-flow capacity.

Combined with the other mods you mention, it's no surprise that the later engine is able to deliver more power. The stronger springs are needed if the valves are larger (and presumably heavier) and if they've raised the red-line. Previous one may have been compromised by valve spring resonance. Raising engine speed while maintaining torque leads to more power.

"Torque is the size of the bang. Power is the number of bangs per second" - Keith Duckworth, co-founder of Cosworth

MB will have needed to re-map the ECU to take advantage of these modifications, while at the same time complying with tighter exhaust emissions regulations (Euro 4 to Euro 5). Also would have needed to raise the rev-limit to accommodate the new 'red-line'...

You may be able to unleash some of the power benefits by simply changing the mechanical bits, but I'd say it's likely that some kind of re-map/re-chip is in your future.

Swapping the ECU for a later one may be an option I guess, though that may depend on how the immobiliser/security system works.

Glad to see someone here can anjoy the information presented. I thought more would of interest considering Im preseting the mechanical difference that comprises the huge leap in power of what is otherwise the exact same chassis and powerplant starting in 2009. Im amazed that the attitude is generally more alouf... as in... "eh, something happened... don't care what". I expected that from the non-SLK owners... but you guys. Im taken aback.

Anyhow.
GeeJay-
As I stated originally, my ecu has been equipped with a total remap. An ecu swap is in this case not only totally overboard and overly complicated but unecessary with such ready access to tuners here in the US.


To answer your question, the remap is not enough and it is infact the nuts and bolts the compromise the engine's ability to crank out 40more hp/torque and at a 700rpm increased rev-limit.
My ecu tune aka air/fuel remap provided a bump from 268 to 284hp. This is obviously much more aggressive than anything MB would have ever provided, but even then theres still much to be desired. I will relate the general enthusiasm for nothing more than car care and maintainence to the fact your SLKs supply a more effective power to weight ratio as well as the 3,27 gearing as opposed to the 2.82.

I was a bit mistaken about finding more information on the technical side from others who may have researched before me, but I'll be more than happy to provide results of this transformation. I must admit before I go that I will not be going near the crankcase and have no desire to gain 5% hp due to one greater point in compression.

anyway, ive rambled on enough.

in summary:

i have access to a number, but am working with one stateside tuner in particular to remap my ecu. he has already done so in stock trim and will have no issue doing so after addition of intake manifold and throttle body. after all, it takes no more than correctin the a/f ratio. a properly placed LM2 will reside in an exhaust bung and record the latest a/f numbers as the ecu learns what it will on its own. OE Tuning, as they're called, will go back and correct it (lean it out most likely) for the optimum results.

I didnt realise that ecu tuning/remaping was such a foreign concept here?
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#9 Old 03-06-2011
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Originally Posted by cpbeasley View Post
Glad to see someone here can anjoy the information presented. I thought more would of interest considering Im preseting the mechanical difference that comprises the huge leap in power of what is otherwise the exact same chassis and powerplant starting in 2009. Im amazed that the attitude is generally more alouf... as in... "eh, something happened... don't care what". I expected that from the non-SLK owners... but you guys. Im taken aback.
Eh? Don't see anything other than encouragement here - and if you manage to pull off some decent $/hp gains, I can think of at least a couple of '350 owners who would wander down the same path.

As I mentioned above, a couple of folks looked closely at this when the new power plant was released, they were simply unable to justify doing it. I suspect that it's even less clear now that the price delta between a F/L '350 and an non-F/L '350 is closing.


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Originally Posted by cpbeasley View Post
Anyhow.
GeeJay-
As I stated originally, my ecu has been equipped with a total remap. An ecu swap is in this case not only totally overboard and overly complicated but unecessary with such ready access to tuners here in the US.


To answer your question, the remap is not enough and it is infact the nuts and bolts the compromise the engine's ability to crank out 40more hp/torque and at a 700rpm increased rev-limit.
My ecu tune aka air/fuel remap provided a bump from 268 to 284hp. This is obviously much more aggressive than anything MB would have ever provided, but even then theres still much to be desired. I will relate the general enthusiasm for nothing more than car care and maintainence to the fact your SLKs supply a more effective power to weight ratio as well as the 3,27 gearing as opposed to the 2.82.

I was a bit mistaken about finding more information on the technical side from others who may have researched before me, but I'll be more than happy to provide results of this transformation. I must admit before I go that I will not be going near the crankcase and have no desire to gain 5% hp due to one greater point in compression. As to all the nay sayers that are grumbling behind their computers about why anyone would spend so much money instead of getting an AMG car....
Don't see anyone grumbling either, loads of us have owned both AMG and non-AMG SLK's, and some of us still have both AMG and non-AMG SLK's. ;-)

I'm always willing to learn, and I think you'll find most on this forum the same. We may not agree with you, but we tend to be polite and at least listen and learn! :-)


Oh, and no one here tunes their cars.





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#10 Old 03-06-2011
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Yeah, my point is I'm not sure even if you were to swap all the mechanical bits how the "old" ECU would compensate for the increased airflow, etc. I would think that a good tuner could remap an old ecu to give you at least some of the advantages you are trying to achieve.

Exactly what are you planning on changing? Just the intake and throttle body? If that's the case, I think you'd be able to get away with a remap on the existing ECU.

The "new" 272 also has a different harmonic balancer shaft from the original 272's - not sure what the sequence numbers where for the change.

A couple of the hardcore folks looked at doing something like this to give the ability to harness the new horsepower coupled with the 6m transmission, and in the end, decided it was not viable given the costs. I'm much more an electronics guy than mechanical, will be interesting to see if Arno notices this thread! :-)

Hope you do a before and after dyno - would be interesting to see the $ per hp gains that can be achieved.

As I feel Ive rambled on enough about now, I work closely with a tuner, OETuning, who has provided and will provide the remapping to harness the added air flow. the tune was a one-time nominal fee that ptovides unlimited re-tunes as OETuning sees fit.

Next weekend I will be adding the intake manifold, TB, and lowered gear differential, on top of my exisiting headers and will obviously also reflash the ecu according to the logged numbers from the wideband.

Apparently the others who came before me did not pursue this very far because, for example, the intake manifold was $220 directly from the MB parts counter.

Will it end there? No. The remainder of the valvetrain is comprimsed of nickle and dime pieces. The upgraded valvesrpings and rockerarms wont be much more than $200 for both entire sets. As for the camshafts, I'll be going by way of Schrick, entirely more aggressive than OEM MB. I'll also be having the sodium filled larger intake/exhaust valves machined in place while Im at it. The valves are again not costly even from the factory and machine work is as cheap as it gets.
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#11 Old 03-06-2011
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The end game here will not only be something Ive had a BLAST doing, but what for now will be an article in a future issue of Star MBCA magazine. Basically we're presenting the option of purchasing a cheaper, less abused, 6 spd c350, dumping a few thousand into it, and seeing if its competitively priced and powered as say a c55... which tends to be more expensive, and is without the option of a manual transmission.
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#12 Old 03-06-2011
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The end game here will not only be something Ive had a BLAST doing, but what for now will be an article in a future issue of Star MBCA magazine. Basically we're presenting the option of purchasing a cheaper, less abused, 6 spd c350, dumping a few thousand into it, and seeing if its competitively priced and powered as say a c55... which tends to be more expensive, and is without the option of a manual transmission.

That's what counts, and I for one will be interested to see what you come up with!



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#13 Old 03-06-2011
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As I mentioned above, a couple of folks looked closely at this when the new power plant was released, they were simply unable to justify doing it. I suspect that it's even less clear now that the price delta between a F/L '350 and an non-F/L '350 is closing.




Oh, and no one here tunes their cars.

You see, the w203, and even up to the '11 w204 dont offer the M014 e35 aka the m272.969aka F/L 350. So, there is no price gap to close for us. 268hp is as good as 06-11 gets without going AMG.


And yes I saw the one instance where that gentleman in question had his SLK55 Kleeman-ized. But I wasnt refering to this one instance, rather the couple comments I have received in this thread about what I would do with the ECU. You all do realise that not just Kleeman tunes our vehicles? There are other options at very reasonable costs compared to Kleeman. $1000 less to be accurate.
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#14 Old 03-06-2011
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Anyhow.
GeeJay-
As I stated originally, my ecu has been equipped with a total remap. An ecu swap is in this case not only totally overboard and overly complicated but unecessary with such ready access to tuners here in the US.

To answer your question, the remap is not enough and it is infact the nuts and bolts the compromise the engine's ability to crank out 40more hp/torque and at a 700rpm increased rev-limit.
My ecu tune aka air/fuel remap provided a bump from 268 to 284hp. This is obviously much more aggressive than anything MB would have ever provided, but even then theres still much to be desired. I will relate the general enthusiasm for nothing more than car care and maintainence to the fact your SLKs supply a more effective power to weight ratio as well as the 3,27 gearing as opposed to the 2.82.

I was a bit mistaken about finding more information on the technical side from others who may have researched before me, but I'll be more than happy to provide results of this transformation. I must admit before I go that I will not be going near the crankcase and have no desire to gain 5% hp due to one greater point in compression.

anyway, ive rambled on enough.

in summary:

i have access to a number, but am working with one stateside tuner in particular to remap my ecu. he has already done so in stock trim and will have no issue doing so after addition of intake manifold and throttle body. after all, it takes no more than correctin the a/f ratio. a properly placed LM2 will reside in an exhaust bung and record the latest a/f numbers as the ecu learns what it will on its own. OE Tuning, as they're called, will go back and correct it (lean it out most likely) for the optimum results.

I didnt realise that ecu tuning/remaping was such a foreign concept here?
I didn't see in your original post where it said your ECU had already been re-mapped. It'll need re-mapping again once you've added the new bits. But you know that already apparently.

I have no questions about your mods. It's your engine. Do what you like with it. For sure it's unlikely that a simple remap will acheive the power benefits that will come from the mechanical bits, plus the appropriate re-map to take advantage of it.

As for re-mapping ECUs, it's been a while since I've done one, but have been messing around with engine maps for some years. I know the technical director of a major retuning company and have had many discussions with him over the last 25-years about re-mapping and what can typically be achieved. I've also worked closely with some of the OEMs over the years.

So not exactly a subject that is alien to me. Just can't be arsed to mess around with it most of the time. I'm certainly not interested in messing with my/our SLK.

In my car, the engine is already quite well tuned at just over 100 hp/litre. So not a lot of point trying to screw anymore out of mine. Honda manage to get more than 100 hp/litre out of their Type-R engine. Maybe you'll get yours to 350+ hp one day.

I think it's great that you are an enthusiastic modder, I look forward to reading about your mods. There are a few members here that mod their SLKs. There are also members that actually do the mods themselves too.
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You see, the w203, and even up to the '11 w204 dont offer the M014 e35 aka the m272.969aka F/L 350. So, there is no price gap to close for us. 268hp is as good as 06-11 gets without going AMG.
Nah, didn't realize that - my W203 is pretty much a stock daily driver, not kept up with modding it.

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And yes I saw the one instance where that gentleman in question had his SLK55 Kleeman-ized. But I wasnt refering to this one instance, rather the couple comments I have received in this thread about what I would do with the ECU. You all do realise that not just Kleeman tunes our vehicles? There are other options at very reasonable costs compared to Kleeman. $1000 less to be accurate.
Yes, I do realize that companies other than Kleemann can tune "our" cars. You stated in your first post you'd mapped out all the differences between the two engines, but didn't mention the ECU. I'm not saying, and never have, that you would not be able to re-map a "legacy" ECU to cover the a/f maps you'll need.

There are loads of people here who have tunes, and most are not Kleemann or Renntech unless they went with the S/C as well.

In any event - as I've said before - will be interesting to see what you come up with, and I really hope you do a couple of dyno runs to keep track of the gains. Will be interesting to see what intakes and a larger throttle body give you.



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#16 Old 03-06-2011
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It's nice to have identified the couple of people here who are mechanically literate and/or vaguely interested in the project. Again, at first I was bringing it here to see if there may have been someone more acquainted than I with the p's and q's behind the upgraded E35 m272, or maybe even someone who had made some headway on interchanging some of the pieces considering said mods were first fitted into the SLK. At this point that hope is niether here nor there, so I will look forward to sharing my results with you all... being at least remotely appropriate due to the pre-09 3.5L that we ESSENTIALLY share.

While Im at it, I must ask if anyone here with the 09-11 SLK350 "red stripe" has had an ECU tune aka A/F remap?
With the baseline of ~300-ish hp... and considering my c350 was blessed with a 15+-ish hp/trq increase w/ its 268hp baseline, I'd love to know the result.

I don't think this particular engine gets the credit it deserves.

btw, for any random 350 owner reading this... OBX headers are kleemann-knockoff at a fraction of the cost.

there is also a brand new turbo kit available from Eurocharged.com
the boost is low due to high compression, and would be better suited for the pre-09 slk350 due to an even higher CR... but it's a good way to add a hundred horsepower for a few thousand dollars.
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I appreciate the welcomes!

Aside from my project, I really would love to own an SLK! It may be best suited as my wife's next vehicle, where I conveniently drive it more than she does
After watching that R172 development video, I'm sold.
However I did catch a glimpse of that widebody kit for 171... ooohhhh myyyy thats good stuff
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#19 Old 03-06-2011
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Originally Posted by cpbeasley View Post
I appreciate the welcomes!

Aside from my project, I really would love to own an SLK! It may be best suited as my wife's next vehicle, where I conveniently drive it more than she does
After watching that R172 development video, I'm sold.
However I did catch a glimpse of that widebody kit for 171... ooohhhh myyyy thats good stuff

I'm not sold on the R172, but headed over to Geneva on the 8th to see what it looks like in the flesh - so ask me again then! Nose just looks out of proportion to the rest of the car - if I wanted an SL, I'd have an SL! :P I do like the concept that - finally for US buyers - full Designo options will be available. I think I'd pay for the interior if I could get over the exterior.

On the 171 widebody, I'm sure Cyber will be along soon to welcome you! :P




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I guess I should say I was sold on the quality engineering, design, and testing because I agree with the sentiment regarding the SL upon closer consideration. Is the r171 made as well as the 72 seems to be?

However, I still can't take my eyes off that wide body r171!!!!
If I were interested in one, say in about 2 years (realistically speaking), will I be able to still get my hands on the kit? I mean, thats the sexiest thing that Ive ever seen.

Where do I have to drive/fly/run to see one of these in person???
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