Flat or cross plane? - Mercedes Benz SLK Forum

AMGs For those high performance Mercedes-Benz R170/R171/R172 cars tuned by AMG

 10Likes
  • 1 Post By Swedish Steven
  • 1 Post By Swedish Steven
  • 2 Post By Turdo2
  • 1 Post By Anders S SLK02
  • 1 Post By Terminal
  • 1 Post By Padgett
  • 3 Post By Padgett
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
#1 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Flat or cross plane?

I have today learned from a Swedish magazine about the differences between an US built V8 and an European one. From sound they can clearly be separated. The cross plane (looking at the ends from the side - looking like a cross) is US style. The flat one (European) is some sort of R4 x 2 deviation with all ends in the same level - i.e. flat. That would explain the difference in sound.

As I understand it ours AMG:s are flat - giving a nice (but different) sound. But why the difference? What is the gain? I have searched the site... in vain.
55russamg likes this.
Swedish Steven is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbanks15 View Post
The writer from that magazine is on some heavy medication
All AMGs are made in Germany
Need to fix this: it´s about the cranks in US cars like a Mustang - compared with an EU built car like the SLK AMG. Sorry about my first post beeing not clear.
jbanks15 likes this.
Swedish Steven is offline  
#3 Old 10-23-2017
Premium Member

 
Turdo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Kansas
Vehicle: 1999 SLK 5.4 M113 V8
Other Toys: Ram 2500, Plymouth Duster
Posts: 1,306
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 382 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 76 Times in 68 Posts
Garage
All Mercedes V8's are cross-plane V8's. not flat.

A ferrari is a flat plane, and it causes the explosions to happen in an even manor hence why it sounds smoother.

A muscle car, or MOST V8's in existance fire in a more "un-balanced" sequence causing it to sound more rough/rumbly.

The new mustang coyote V8 is a flat plane, and sounds un-traditional.

advantages?? higher RPM's and smoother.
jbanks15 and Terminal like this.
Turdo2 is offline  
 
#4 Old 10-23-2017
Administrator/Founding Member

 
jbanks15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Vehicle: 2009 SLK 55 AMG Kleemann Supercharger, ECU tune, Headers and LSD, CF Diffuser
Posts: 90,548
Country:
Chats: 38
Mentioned: 445 Post(s)
Tagged: 5 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Thanks: 3,219
Thanked 10,970 Times in 8,334 Posts
You can edit your own thread
Use 'edit' button


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeff, US Army Master Sergeant Retired
2009 SLK 55 AMG Black/Black
Kleemann Supercharger thread here:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kleemann ECU Tune, headers and downpipes thread here:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Albums:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ClearBra
OEM MB Plexiglass Draught Stop
Smarttop version 3.22
Previous - 02 SLK 320, 05 SLK 350
jbanks15 is online now  
#5 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turdo2 View Post
All Mercedes V8's are cross-plane V8's. not flat.

A ferrari is a flat plane, and it causes the explosions to happen in an even manor hence why it sounds smoother.

A muscle car, or MOST V8's in existance fire in a more "un-balanced" sequence causing it to sound more rough/rumbly.

The new mustang coyote V8 is a flat plane, and sounds un-traditional.

advantages?? higher RPM's and smoother.
The new Mustang was the issue in the article - a flat one (and new to a US car). But what you say is an "un-balanced" in a "muscle car" needs to be explained. By random? Or such as cross plane? Trust there are an explanation.
Swedish Steven is offline  
#6 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
BTW, thanks for giving me the info on that a MB AMG is with a cross plane crank. I had no idea, but from the sound I was sure it was a flat one.
Swedish Steven is offline  
#7 Old 10-23-2017
Premium Member

 
Turdo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Kansas
Vehicle: 1999 SLK 5.4 M113 V8
Other Toys: Ram 2500, Plymouth Duster
Posts: 1,306
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 382 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 76 Times in 68 Posts
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Steven View Post
The new Mustang was the issue in the article - a flat one (and new to a US car). But what you say is an "un-balanced" in a "muscle car" needs to be explained. By random? Or such as cross plane? Trust there are an explanation.
this is from my understanding and may vary among different engines and firing orders.

for example, most V8's are labeled cylinders 1-4 on the right, and 5-8 on the left, but the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. so when you look at the firing order 4-3 are on the same side, but occur after each other in the firing order. same with 6-5-7. that's why it sounds so off beat.

A flat plane crank fires one cylinder per side at a time. which causes it to sound more even.
Turdo2 is offline  
#8 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sweden, South part
Vehicle: 2002 SLK 200K , Silver metallic (Special edition)
Other Toys: Notable earlier cars: MGB, Triumph Spitfire, Porsche 914 & 944, Jeep, Bv202 & 206 :-)
Posts: 228
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Steven View Post
The new Mustang was the issue in the article - a flat one (and new to a US car). But what you say is an "un-balanced" in a "muscle car" needs to be explained. By random? Or such as cross plane? Trust there are an explanation.
From Wikipedia (search for crankshaft):
Quote:
Engine configuration[edit]
The configuration, meaning the number of pistons and their placement in relation to each other leads to straight, V or flat engines. The same basic engine block can sometimes be used with different crankshafts, however, to alter the firing order. For instance, the 90° V6 engine configuration, in older days[when?] sometimes derived by using six cylinders of a V8 engine with a 3 throw crankshaft, produces an engine with an inherent pulsation in the power flow due to the "gap" between the firing pulses alternates between short and long pauses because the 90 degree engine block does not correspond to the 120 degree spacing of the crankshaft. The same engine, however, can be made to provide evenly spaced power pulses by using a crankshaft with an individual crank throw for each cylinder, spaced so that the pistons are actually phased 120° apart, as in the GM 3800 engine. While most production V8 engines use four crank throws spaced 90° apart, high-performance V8 engines often use a "flat" crankshaft with throws spaced 180° apart, essentially resulting in two straight four engines running on a common crankcase. The difference can be heard as the flat-plane crankshafts result in the engine having a smoother, higher-pitched sound than cross-plane (for example, IRL IndyCar Series compared to NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, or a Ferrari 355 compared to a Chevrolet Corvette). This type of crankshaft was also used on early types of V8 engines. See the main article on crossplane crankshafts.
Frenzy36 likes this.
Anders S SLK02 is offline  
#9 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Thanks Turdo2 and Anders S SLK02. It explains a few things - but not why. The firing order makes a different sound = OK. I am with you there.

IMHO the sound of my V8 is different to a "muscle V8" - even if they are both "cross plane". But why the different firing order? It dosen´t make sense. To me, at least
Swedish Steven is offline  
#10 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sweden, South part
Vehicle: 2002 SLK 200K , Silver metallic (Special edition)
Other Toys: Notable earlier cars: MGB, Triumph Spitfire, Porsche 914 & 944, Jeep, Bv202 & 206 :-)
Posts: 228
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Steven View Post
Thanks Turdo2 and Anders S SLK02. It explains a few things - but not why. The firing order makes a different sound = OK. I am with you there.

IMHO the sound of my V8 is different to a "muscle V8" - even if they are both "cross plane". But why the different firing order? It dosen´t make sense. To me, at least
At it again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine , then go "crankshaft". :-)
Anders S SLK02 is offline  
#11 Old 10-23-2017
Premium Member

 
Turdo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Kansas
Vehicle: 1999 SLK 5.4 M113 V8
Other Toys: Ram 2500, Plymouth Duster
Posts: 1,306
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 382 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 76 Times in 68 Posts
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders S SLK02 View Post
At it again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine , then go "crankshaft". :-)
basically, cross plane fires every 90 degrees. flat plane fires every 180 degrees. cross plane = more torque.
Turdo2 is offline  
#12 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: London
Vehicle: 05 55
Other Toys: My little Pony
Posts: 1,615
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 533 Post(s)
Thanks: 42
Thanked 108 Times in 103 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Steven View Post
Thanks Turdo2 and Anders S SLK02. It explains a few things - but not why. The firing order makes a different sound = OK. I am with you there.

IMHO the sound of my V8 is different to a "muscle V8" - even if they are both "cross plane". But why the different firing order? It dosen´t make sense. To me, at least

Mostly due to the design of the exhaust system, MB incorporating a resonator box, to damp out the pulses.
jbanks15 likes this.
Terminal is offline  
#13 Old 10-23-2017
6007.us
 
Padgett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Orlando
Vehicle: '01 SLK320 Lazulithe Blue, '00 SLK230 Bahama Blue (needs interior parts)
Other Toys: Too many others. See web page.
Posts: 2,569
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 157 Times in 144 Posts
Novi was a flat plane V8. Part of the reason few use them in a V engine is making an equal length exhaust system is a nightmare unless the exhaust ports are in the valley which is fine for a rear/mid engine but tad more difficult for a front engine RWD.

BTW the first modern 90 degree V6 to use offset crank pins was the Buick "even fire" 3.8/3800 in the mid 80s. Merc was a copycat.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Padgett is offline  
#14 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
ps33fount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Cape Coral FL
Vehicle: 2005 SLK55 AMG
Other Toys: too many things to take care of and use properly
Posts: 1,582
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Thanks: 267
Thanked 57 Times in 57 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turdo2 View Post
this is from my understanding and may vary among different engines and firing orders.

for example, most V8's are labeled cylinders 1-4 on the right, and 5-8 on the left, but the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. so when you look at the firing order 4-3 are on the same side, but occur after each other in the firing order. same with 6-5-7. that's why it sounds so off beat.

A flat plane crank fires one cylinder per side at a time. which causes it to sound more even.
GM labels driver side bank, 1-3-5-7, passenger side 2-4-6-8. Firing order is 18436572, and the crank throws are 90 degree out. This firing order was what was used on small blocks and big blocks from back in the day. The new LS (don't offer Big Blocks any longer), is double swap, 2-3, and 4-7, so new order is 18726543. Running a double swap cam in an older SB or BB chevy will net a smoother idle and slight power boost, but it hurts the "lope" that is so characteristic of big cam engines.
ps33fount is offline  
#15 Old 10-23-2017
6007.us
 
Padgett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Orlando
Vehicle: '01 SLK320 Lazulithe Blue, '00 SLK230 Bahama Blue (needs interior parts)
Other Toys: Too many others. See web page.
Posts: 2,569
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 157 Times in 144 Posts
Part of the problem is that a V8 fires cyl 90 degrees apart so the valve openings overlap unless the cam is really ded. In most cases you are better off tuning an 8 as two fours to eliminate overlap (see also dual plane manifolds).

Now an (inline or even fire) six fires 120 degrees apart and with a proper header system up to about 6 grand your best scavenging is with equal length primaries, a single collector, and single exhaust pipe. At higher RPM duals are better when you consider pulse acceleration. Tune a 12 as two sixes.

Did I mention I really like OHC 6s ?

Also have this nut theory that on pump gasoline the ideal stroke is 3.25 to 3.50" (80-90mm). Square to a bit oversquare is good. Undersquare winds slow and low. Pick # of cyl to match desired displacement. If going to add boost, also need direct injection. Personally like trips or dual quads for fun cars and NA FI for everyday.

ps Buick evenfire also had a balance shaft you could replace without pulling the engine.
ps33fount likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Padgett is offline  
#16 Old 10-23-2017
Registered Users
 
ps33fount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Cape Coral FL
Vehicle: 2005 SLK55 AMG
Other Toys: too many things to take care of and use properly
Posts: 1,582
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Thanks: 267
Thanked 57 Times in 57 Posts
our 3.6L Cadillac V6, incredibly smooth idle, and will really move out when the throttle is pushed, believe it is rated at 310 HP.


Best engine I have owned was the 301.59 CID (302) offered in the 1967 to 1969 Z/28 camaro's. I had a clone (was an SS Car), with a fully built 302. Forged everything, Balanced, 2.02 heads, 13.5 to 1 CR. 4.0 inch bore, 3.0 inch stroke. With extra springs between the bottom of the heads to the solid roller lifter body (rev kit), that engine would pull Hard to 9500 rpm. I've seen 11,000 on the tack when I missed a gear, and it still held together. Now, that doesn't hold a candle to a REAL F1 engine that runs to 18 or 19K all race long.

Last edited by ps33fount; 10-23-2017 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Add Chevy 302 (5.0 L) from Trans Am Series 1968-1971
ps33fount is offline  
#17 Old 10-24-2017
6007.us
 
Padgett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Orlando
Vehicle: '01 SLK320 Lazulithe Blue, '00 SLK230 Bahama Blue (needs interior parts)
Other Toys: Too many others. See web page.
Posts: 2,569
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 157 Times in 144 Posts
Z28 engine (originally RPOs Z 281, 282, 283, and 284 - Z28 did not appear until '68, 67's had no insignia.) was a 283 crank in a 327 block. Purpose was to meet the SCCA 5 liter (305 cid) Trans/Am regs.

SBC had a cross plane crank (and cross ram carbs - ob. thread).

Fun part was in the marketing: was rated at 290hp compared to the 350's 295hp (reality was more like 440hp). They wanted the squirrels to buy the 350.

Won a lot of trophies with mine (never could figure out why autocross trophies were so much smaller than drag racing).



(pic taken in late 60s - what we know as low profile tires today were called "cantilever tires" back then. Side pipes are a little hard to see)
Terminal, waylander and Frenzy36 like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Padgett is offline  
#18 Old 10-24-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
The "" appears - thank you for the inputs. Now beeing a bit more clever, or at least a bit more knowing. X-pipes and resonator box are now more understandable. Have to think this over, but the wife is under the impression that the car is loud enough. More to come, just don´t know how to hide it.
Swedish Steven is offline  
#19 Old 10-24-2017
Administrator/Founding Member

 
jbanks15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Vehicle: 2009 SLK 55 AMG Kleemann Supercharger, ECU tune, Headers and LSD, CF Diffuser
Posts: 90,548
Country:
Chats: 38
Mentioned: 445 Post(s)
Tagged: 5 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6459 Post(s)
Thanks: 3,219
Thanked 10,970 Times in 8,334 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Steven View Post
The "" appears - thank you for the inputs. Now beeing a bit more clever, or at least a bit more knowing. X-pipes and resonator box are now more understandable. Have to think this over, but the wife is under the impression that the car is loud enough. More to come, just don´t know how to hide it.
add whatever you want. Wife won't know the difference unless you tell her

When my car was gone a week for the Supercharger, I just said it was in for 'X' and they got the wrong part, so have to wait for 'X' to come in.

Here is 'X'

https://www.slkworld.com/performance-...er-thread.html


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeff, US Army Master Sergeant Retired
2009 SLK 55 AMG Black/Black
Kleemann Supercharger thread here:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kleemann ECU Tune, headers and downpipes thread here:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Albums:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ClearBra
OEM MB Plexiglass Draught Stop
Smarttop version 3.22
Previous - 02 SLK 320, 05 SLK 350
jbanks15 is online now  
#20 Old 10-24-2017
Registered Users
 
Swedish Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Gothenburg Sweden
Vehicle: SLK 55 AMG 2005
Other Toys: MB C-class 300d 4matic, Honda GB500
Posts: 442
Country:
Chats: 0
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Thanks: 33
Thanked 47 Times in 24 Posts
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Got it. Flat tire or low on washer fluid.
Swedish Steven is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Mercedes Benz SLK Forum > General Discussion about Mercedes Benz SLKs > AMGs

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Upload your files to MEGAUPLOAD
Upload your images to ImageShack

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes Benz SLK Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pilots honored for saving plane after deck mishap jbanks15 Off Topic 3 08-15-2016 07:31 PM
Using center of cross member for jacking point Deep_Blue SLK R171 General Discussion 3 06-23-2016 08:58 PM
Tesla ends $100 flat fee service promise Berliner Heckflosse Off Topic 0 11-02-2015 03:10 PM
1st snakes on plane, now scorpions! jbanks15 Off Topic 0 02-15-2015 02:49 PM
Plane barely misses sunbather while landing jbanks15 Off Topic 1 06-02-2014 11:07 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 

Clubs, Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.