Ikarus

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There is a new article posted in the German news magazine Spiegel Online, which talks about the differences between the two concepts.

According to this, the new MCT transmission debuting in the new SL63 AMG replaces the torque converter with a 6-disk wet start-up clutch. A representative from the manufacturer ZF is quoted as saying that such transmissions are more cost-effective than those of DSG type and that they are also able to perform gear changes faster than conventional transmissions involving torque converters (he claims less than 100ms). He does not deny though, that there are fundamental advantages to the DSG concept, while an AMG representative quoted in the article claims that their concept provides advantages for shifts skipping a gear.

All in all, it sounds to me like MB is trying to catch up on the cheap. Less than 100ms is far from the 8ms that VW claims for the DSG.

The article also says that a new DSG version for higher-torque engines will first debut in the Audi Q5. In this case, the transmission can handle 550 Nm, while the current version tops out at 320.

ir-ops

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thanks this input ikarus,

the most important factor to any change in transmission systems still remains, as per conclusion of the spiegel article, the repayment of the huge amounts (in four digit millions) invested worldwide over the last years by the car making companies for the development of new automatic transmissions...

brgds/ir-ops

p.s.: 'ikarus' as in the hungarian buses, the 70's prog band, the aircraft model makers, the son of daedalus, other?

Ikarus

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Well, that's what the guy from ZF says, but obviously, they have their own agenda in this business. I believe this may just turn out to be wishful thinking. If the DSG concept gets to be competitive in terms of price, those investments may just go down the drain, since the market (that is us!) will get what the market wants.

For myself I can say that after having driven an Audi A3 2.0T equipped with the DSG, I wouldn't want anything less in exchange for giving up manual transmissions for good. This car felt faster than its 200HP, and since I drove it back to back with the same car equipped with a manual transmission, I have no doubts that this was because of the relentless, uninterrupted acceleration facilitated by those blazingly fast shifts.

They all stole it from Greek mythology, and so did I.

ir-ops

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thanks yr last,

never had the experience of dsg myself (i am a fan of traditional manuals), but it sure looks there are only positive feedbacks outthere, and the prices will eventually drop. vw is already offering 7-speed dsg for the new golf for abt 1,750 eur, promoted with this smart commercial,


available even for the 90 kw/1.4 tsi engine.

best
ir-ops

p.s. the name of the air cadets 'ikaros' and the hellenic air force academy 'ikaron' (plural form) has been based on the myth delivered to us by the greek writers of the classical era, and stresses the courage and determination for freedom.

cyberdrakon

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you know, i always thought the lesson of ikarus was to avoid hubris (like many other greek stories).

Ikarus

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True, but like most great stories, this one has more than one possible interpretation, quote:

ir-ops

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thanks yr interesting approaches,

u/stand this post out of correct placement, but pls find here below in qte/unqte an extract fm the hellenic airforce academy site, with the 'official' version of the myth:

qte

According to the myth, the King of Crete Minos invited in Knossos the famous Athenian craftsman, architect and inventor Daedalus, as he was intending to build an inimitable palace. Thus the Knossos palace was constructed.
It was the largest and grandest of the palaces. It covered an area of 22,000 sq. metres and consisted from 1300 rooms of all sizes, large halls, storerooms, workshops, staircases and corridors. In the eastern wing there were four storeys of royal apartments, and in the western wing the official "Throne Room". The halls of the palace were decorated with splendid frescoes. (It is estimated that the palace was built between approximately 1700 - 1450 B.C.).
The palace was designed by Daedalus with such complexity that no one placed in it could ever find its exit. King Minos then kept the architect prisoner to ensure that he would not reveal the palace plan to anyone.
There, Daedalus had a son, Ikarus, with King Mino’s slave Nausicrates. Father and son lived together in the palace offering their services to the King.
This situation did not last long since two events broke the existing status. The first was that Daedalus helped the King’s wife Pasifae to realise her wish for Poseidon‘s bull, giving birth to the Minotaur. Secondly he supplied Ariadne, daughter of Minos, with the thread with which she guided Theseus through the Labyrinth where he killed the Minotaur.
Daedallus and Ikarus were strictly confined by Minos, rendering their escape by sea impossible. Thus another way of leaving had to be improvised and the only available possibility was an escape by air, however risky. Daedalus, thus, built wings with cloth, flax-made bands, bird feathers and wax. He also made up a flight plan of the escape route over the Aegean sky. This plan seems to have involved a flight over Paros, Delos and Ikaria ending at Samos or Ephesus on Asia Minor coast.
Before take-off, Daedalus had warned his son to fly neither at a very high nor very low altitude, since either the heat of the sun or the humidity of seawater could destroy the wings. However, while flying over the southern coast of Ikaria, young Ikarus, captivated by the thrill of the flight, ignored his father’s advice and began to fly higher, closer to the sun. The wax began to melt, the feathers came loose and scattered in the air and thus, Ikarus fell to his death. He crashed into the sea which since then bears his name and so does the island where he was buried by his father (Ikarian Sea, Ikaria).
Daedalus arrived at Kimi, with broken heart, where he built a temple in honour of Apollo, to whom he dedicated the wings that gave him freedom.
However mythological, the death of Ikarus was the first sacrifice of mankind in its struggle to tame the skies. Many scholars have examined the myth of Daedalus and Ikarus and have tried to place it chronologically, concluding that the most likely date would be around 1400 B.C.

unqte

to my u/standing, the myth addresses more the overestimation of man's powers and the associated arrogance, than the committed hybris.
i trust this particular myth has a special place in the heart of every greek military and civil pilot.

mod reading, feel free to remove this to the off topic section/sorry for the trouble and thanks.

best
ir-ops